Faustin Ngabu led the Catholic Diocese of Goma in North Kivu for thirty-six years, from 1974 to 2010. His time as bishop was marked by wars and armed conflicts that tore apart eastern Democratic Republic of Congo. Consistent with his motto, “all may be one”, the bishop was committed to the unity of the Congolese people. Second episode.
African Facts met with Faustin Ngabu twice, in February and September 2025, in Goma. During the first interview, the prelate recalled that no community was less Congolese than any other. In this second interview, he talks about the rebels’ demands and tribalism, which he believes to be the main cause of the recent conflicts in the region.
African Facts: In the first part of our interview, you explained that, in your opinion, the Congolese Banyarwanda had weakened themselves by dividing their identity. More specifically, the people designated as “Tutsi”?
Faustin Ngabu: I believe it was in 1993 that the Banyarwanda who were there started being chased away. Later, they fled to Rwanda, where they were placed in two camps: one in Byumba [in the northeast Ed.] and another in Kibuye [in the west Ed.].
Note from African Facts Editor: In 1993, the first clashes broke out between people from the Hunde and Nyanga communities and the Banyarwanda around the Ntoto area, which is located on the border between the Masisi and Walikale territories, about 100 km west of Goma. Also that year, the Banyarwanda split and clashed in the Bwito chiefdom in the Rutshuru territory, which extends north of Goma. These two conflicts resulted in the first Tutsi displacements within North Kivu. The massive arrival of Hutu refugees from Rwanda in the following year, including those responsible for the Tutsi genocide, caused the displaced Congolese to flee the country.
— The first Banyarwanda refugees?
Indeed. Today, it is the children of these refugees who have said: “Why should we be denied our citizenship?”
Realising that the Congolese state was not willing to improve their situation in a humane or political way, they took up arms.
— So, these are Congolese people fighting for their right to nationality?
The first point for me is that there is a group of Congolese people who have been denied citizenship. They have chosen war to reclaim their rights as citizens.
The second issue is that, in their view, Tshisekedi’s government [Félix Tshisekedi, the President of the Democratic Republic of Congo Ed.] must fall. That’s political.
But the real reason for the war is to show the world that they have the right to be Congolese. They are Congolese!
— However, the Congolese government accuses Rwanda of being responsible for this war, particularly with regard to minerals. Rwanda is also accused of aiming to “balkanise” the DRC. Why is Rwanda being accused?
The dialogue should be with the M23, not the Rwandan president. However, since we don’t recognise the M23 as Congolese, we insist on involving Rwanda. In other words, we will accept dialogue with Rwanda. Or we will punish Rwanda. But it has no basis.
— So, is the solution to the current crisis to fully recognise the rights of these Congolese people who are denied their nationality? What processes do you think could lead to that?
The first step is to acknowledge who they are: Congolese.
Secondly, to recognise them, you have to talk to them. We need to talk to them, not Rwanda.
However, the Congolese government needs to understand what constitutes nationality in Congo. It is the act of independence. It’s not about whether an ethnicity is “autochtonous” or not. That’s not relevant. We were all Belgian subjects, and it was through the act of independence that we became Congolese citizens. Therefore, the defining factor of who is Congolese is the act of independence. And this is something that many people don’t know. This should be remembered.
— Can the Church play a role?
We should be able to sit down together. The Church can, of course, play a role. In fact, the episcopal conference has already undertaken this. The conference had to listen to the young people from the M23. It was then that the president of the conference realised that he didn’t have all the facts.
I didn’t participate in the talks, but the bishop called me afterwards. When I was with the president of the conference, I asked him how the conversation had gone. He replied: “Very well. These young people explained the reason for this war very well”.
— Has the episcopal conference therefore taken a position?
So, I asked him if the reasons they gave him were well-founded. He told me: “Yes, that’s the truth”. That’s what he told me. He didn’t tell me what the reasons were, but he said: “They explained the reasons for the war well, and they are right”. That’s what he told me. I told him: “Monsignor, if that’s the case, one day the permanent or extraordinary committee should issue a statement saying that this group is right and that they have the right to claim citizenship. War is a bad way to do it, but they are right”.
They could do that; it would be good, but I don’t know if they will get there. I told the conference president this.
— Congo share borders with other countries. There are transnational communities at each border, with Angola, Central Africa and so on. Why do such problems arise here in Kivu?
I would like to emphasise that it is because tribalism reigns supreme here. The reason is tribalism. When you are caught up in ideology, human intelligence regresses. Because you can’t think outside of your ideology.
But tribalism is at the root of this. This tribalism is reinforced by the major Western powers. They don’t want the Democratic Republic of Congo to develop politically or economically because otherwise it could become a second China, which they see as problematic.
Since as early as 1967, the major powers have been pitting the East against the West. But they are not afraid of the West. They are more afraid of the East.
So you need to stir up tribalism between ethnic groups so they can no longer trust each other. To achieve this, you encourage one ethnic group to arm itself to protect itself against the others. You distribute weapons to all of these groups.
— Are you optimistic today about moving away from tribalism to build a better Congo? Can the conflict come to an end? Do you have hope?
We are at a moment of transition. I have that impression. It’s not the first time that the Banyarwanda have involved themselves. Before the M23, there was the CNDP [the National Congress for the Defence of the People, a rebellion supported by Rwanda in Kivu between 2006 and 2009 and the precursor to the current M23 Ed.]. But today, it feel like people are starting to realise that we were wrong.
If this continues, I think it will lead to a new vision. Because, what the M23 did well when they started conquering was to bring peace everywhere they went. It brings people closer together to say that we are all from the same country, that we must not kill each other. It’s about not turning against one ethnicity or another.
So finally, people started saying: “Here, we have more peace than in areas under government control”. When the government was in control of Goma, it was a place lacking peace. Of course, it is not easy today. The Wazalendo [“the patriots” in kiswahili, a wide range of armed rebels now officially recognised by Kinshasa as “reservists” Ed.] and extremist, have not all left Goma. They are hiding here and there.
But I think that if we focus on changing mindsets, we can succeed. We can overcome tribalism. The issue is changing the mentality. People need to realise what tribalism leads to, and that it only leads to evil.
To do that, people need to discover the origin of our problem. It’s not finished yet, but this philosophy could easily help us to eradicate tribalism.
